Characters are being updated now for Dragonflight Expansion!
- Item Level Character Rankings
- SimDPS
Also check:
- Guild Item Level Rankings
- Item Level Character Rankings
- SimDPS
Also check:
- Guild Item Level Rankings
Comments: 21
Regarding 10- and 25-man rankings
13 years ago
As people have noticed, the 10/25 raid separation for Tier11 has been removed.
The reason is that currently it's technically not possible to have reliable raid size distinction based on the armory.
The details
Previously we checked boss kill list for each member of a guild provided by the armory. That list contained every boss kill made by a character (not only first kills).
Now the armory (both armories, the new and the old) doesn't provide this list anymore, there is no new boss kills since release of Cataclysm.
So we've switched to the achievement list which still have info which boss has been killed and when.
The problem with the achievement list is that it only records first kills made by character.
Imagine that a guild kills a boss with two 10-man raids. Next week they gather a 25-man raid and kill the same boss again with the 25-man raid.
We can't determine this kill as there will be no records in the armory for the characters that already killed the boss (in 10-man raids), as they already got the achievement.
And vice-versa, if a guild kills 25-man version, then it will be not possible to detect 10-man kill.
Is it a bug?
Is it a bug of the armory or Blizzard has removed it intentionally, I don't know.
My opinion about 10- and 25-man raids
Personally I'm going to play in 10-man only raids.
(I would rather to have 7-man raids instead of 10-man as it's better for communication, though I guess it would require reducing amount of buffs and class/specs).
But there should be possibility for separated 10/25 rankigns and the reason is: the more ranking options exist, the more winners we have and thus more fun.
Even if the rankings removed, there going to be 10 vs 25 tension as the difference exists objectively and this site is just trying to reflect the reality.
Proposal
I would propose to enable the boss kills info at least for heroic bosses. This way we could make distinction for heroic mode rankings.
Niagorea
It's true this approach might give some 25-man groups undeserved 10-man kills somewhere in the 100's. I don't think that's a huge injustice. It's definitely better than erasing the distinctions entirely.
Could just track the number from there?
Blizzard's way to phase out 25 man!
It strikes me that you could scan the main guild page for each guild. If a character has a drop from a raid boss, rescan in an hour and count the number of drops within that hour from the same boss.
If it's 5-6, give 25-man credit. If it's 2, give 10-man credit.
This system would not be perfect. Later on, a 25-man might only need ~2 pieces of loot. You could also game the system by splitting into 3 10-man raids all of which manage to kill the same boss within an hour of each other.
Still I think this approach would be 99.9% accurate for high level progression.
Lucyinthesky#2324
isnt possible to determinate the raid size by the quantity of items droped? (2 in 10 man, 5 in 25 man)
I apologize to those of you in Europe and other areas who can't post in that topic, but I encourage you to make topics of your own on your region specific forums. Let's not ignore this, guys; do we really want to go back to the days of Vanilla Naxx, where there was often great confusion about who got the first kill on what boss? --Where specific classes and specs were extremely under or overpowered, and never fixed because there was no evidence of those issues?
We need the new Armory to give us full disclosure of raid activities, or we risk being flung back into the dark ages of raiding.
Is there any way to reference combat logs (verified with a cross reference to the armory achievement)?
I've forwarded your post to the EU forums: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1172961956
Hopefully people will wake up and sign.
I'm sure you will find a solution for heroics or I'm afraid this site will lose all legitimacy. I know I won't be checking ranks anymore with a bunch of 10 man guilds thrown in the mix
1. rank 10man and 25man together
2. rank 10man and 25man separately, but dont give credit to people who complete 10man before 25man. Also fucks up when people join/leave/create guilds.
3. rank based on loot, which also fucks up a bit into each tier of content, but is less reliable than #2 even from the start.
And dont even pretend that 10 and 25man are equally hard and that #1 is a viable option.
The only time we ran a 10man was last tuesday because people were still leveling up, but from what we've seen certain trash mobs hit about as hard in 10 man as they do in 25, making the former a lot more difficult to deal with. Magmaw raid damage is very harsh in 10 man but caused no problems at all in 25. Maloriak actually has a tight berserk timer on 10man which seems to be completely missing on 25, etc.
I'm sure there are certain bosses that are a complete joke in 10man compared to 25 as well (guessing Altramedes, Chimaeron, Ascendant Council, maybe Al'Akir).
Fact is there is a difference in difficulty and ranking both together makes no sense at all, I completely agree with you there. This was brought up many times in the shared realm first thread on the beta forums as well.
It looks like blizzard is trying to force the community to believe they're equal by hiding this information from the armory instead of actually tuning the encounters correctly. That's not going to work though, and if this site wants to retain any credibility a solution has to be found.
I would suggest the following rule: consider the most recent boss first kill by each guild only and then check whether that kill meets the 10man guild run or the 25man guild run criterion. This determines the bracket each guild is ranked in.
Mettle#2502
Ballarosteel
Question is, what to do with Rankings? :(
Top Guilds don't show their Logs publicly, so that's out.
Screenshots? Good luck shifting through 10000+ Screenshots, no way.
Guild clicks whether they Raid 10 or 25 and expect them to not Bullshit? Meh.
Loot? Won't work with all Guilds either. Some lower-end Guilds will keep farming the same Boss/es which means you can't know if they keep doing it 10 or if they've gone 25 or vice-versa for the consecutive week(s). In other words: If you do say Marrowgar 10 1 week and Marrowgar 25 the next week and you D/E all the Loot from Marrowgar 25, how the hell does WowProgress figure out what Mode you did it on? Nope, no chance.
For people flaming him, look at Guildox. ONE Ranking. Where are you going to go? Stop flaming, you only make yourselves look dumb.
Right now it seems its up to Blizzard. They either Tag kills as 10 or 25 (hidden) or we're screwed. They're probably happier this way though so I doubt they will.
Making Realm Firsts work for 10 and 25 was fail though. Horrible, horrible move. Least make two separate ones if not 25-only.... If we go on like this they'll have scrapped 25s by next expansion.
Really hoping you get something sorted out though.
Actually, here's a possibility:
Scan the Time Stamps of the WHOLE Guilds.
Basically: Have the Site Scan everyone's Activity Feed. If it can find 25 Matching Time Stamps for a Boss kill, have it count as 25. If it can only find 10, have it count as 10. If it finds 20 or 30 then you know its multiple 10s. If it finds 50.... Well rare case. Besides, what's the chances of timing a kill exactly at the same second? Could also just tag those Kills as invalid.
Scan the Time Stamps of the WHOLE Guilds.
Basically: Have the Site Scan everyone's Activity Feed. If it can find 25 Matching Time Stamps for a Boss kill, have it count as 25..."
This was going to be my suggestion as well:
21+ matching time stamps = 25-man kill
8+ matching time stamps = 10-man kill
This allows for a few PUGs to be factored into a kill while still giving credit to the guild for a kill.
The chances of two separate groups from the same guild killing the same boss at the exact same second is beyond unlikely.
The site does scan activity feed. The problem is that there is no boss kills anymore in activity feeds.
whats the problem with disenchanting in the SECOND kill? only firstkills will be tracked.
so besides writing an extra addon that would be the best solution
I mean if the problem is boss kills not showing in activity feed then how are they being picked up at all at the moment?
So however they are being registered now, if 25 members of a guild have a synchronised time stamp for a kill then it was obviously a 25 man kill.
It seems a simple workaround but obviously we don't know the full details of how kills are recorded now and the limitations.
Yavimaya#1637
So there is 2 things we can do:
1st: If you haven't done it, I encourage everyone who reads this to reply to the posts at blizzard official forums.
For US s.o. posted this link: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1406723625
For all other zones i haven't found a topic now, please post it in a reply below.
2nd: Kernel, please try out some of these solutions and think about others - I guess there are many ppl around here who really want to help you if you need some help. I encourage you, to not only stick with the best for your favorit 10-man raid. We need those separate rankings as soon as possible, because with every ID having merged rankings more und more people will go from 25-man to 10-man just because you can't compete as a 25-man raid against a 10-man raid, because a 10-man raid is, in general, much much easier.
At last I want to thank you for all the work you spend with this site over the years. It is the best ranking site you can find on the net and I hope you won't let us down.
Ps: Sorry for my bad english, i´m not completely awake right now and english isn't my first language.
Perhaps you should really think about some solutions mentioned.
If I understand correctly, it is still possible to track if a first kill is made in 10 or 25. if that is true, I don't see a problem.
If you downsize from 25 to 10 to get a certain first kill, it is not a bad thing if the ranking sites will essentially disregard that kill. It will "force" 25-progression guilds to stick to their guns and take away any incentives to cheat rankings. It actually solves a problem.
Dxbi#2626
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1172961956
"While players can freely move between raids of different sizes in normal difficulty, there are some additional rules for Heroic difficulty. If a 10- or 25-player raid defeats a boss on Heroic difficulty, then those players may now only raid additional Heroic encounters with that specific raid."
So what does this mean?
If a 25-player guild kills the first boss in an instance on 10-player heroic, those 10 characters are stuck with a 10 man id for the rest of the week and any subsequent heroic kills made by the same characters that reset must also be 10-player. In other words, a 25-player guild would NEVER do this on their main characters unless they consider the first boss to be completely impossible on 25.
If the same guild kills the first boss on 25 heroic, they're stuck with a 25 man id for that week, so any subsequent heroic kills made by the same characters that reset must also be 25-player.
Now consider a guild kills the first heroic boss with one or two 10-player raids, and the next week they kill the first 2 bosses with a 25-player raid. Only the 2nd boss can be correctly tracked to be a 25-player kill, but if they killed the 2nd boss on 25 heroic, they must also have killed the first one on 25 because of how the lockout works! You can then use the timestamps that don't match the previous week's 10-player kill to determine when the 25-player kill was done, even if only 5 new characters gained the achievement.
Of course this means any 25-player kills of a boss that guild already killed in 10-player raid will only count if that same guild kills a NEW boss that reset, but I think that's a reasonable compromise.
The only time it will truely break is when a guild fully clears a 10-player heroic raid and the next week goes for 25-player heroic. Those kills you won't be able to track with 100% certainty, but I think that's a pretty obscure case.
Fals#2730
Falz
This is going to be a huge problem in the community. Mixing the ranks will probably completely kill the 25 raids
Maybe possibility that GM/Officer mark the guild as 10/25 and then the system will run a check like when you register your char and have to log out with specific slots empty
If a 10 man guild lies and claim to be 25 it can be banned just like it was done when guilds reseted ID with faction change.
On 2nd thought just mark the 25 man guilds and assume the rest are 10 man.
Of course, you are hoping that people won't abuse the feature - but in terms of recruitment, abuse is pretty self-defeating.
As an added benefit it will also increase registrations of guilds and the member count of wowprogress up significantly. If you want your guild ranked in the proper category, you'll have to register. That is a great selling point for use cooperation and most likely, fuller guild profiles.
This would also be a proprietary solution and not require Blizzard to do anything and therefore just takes code.
and hopefully well get seperated rankings until the next id
Izzie#2570
Anyway guilds marking themselves as 25man if they are so, seems to be a solution for now. You can have a sort of addon check-running frequently the 25man guilds and whenever an inconsistent is found to points penaltize, temporarily ban and perma ban if it happens a 3rd time from the site.
You do a great work past years and it's a shame to let it get lost, just cuz Blizz likes experimenting with guild communities. It seems lot of them are here backing you up and trying to find a solution that will work the best for everyone (to the limit it is possible :P)
/cheers
Fals#2730
Falz
Marking guilds as 10 or 25 man seems the like the best and easiest solution
wowprogress updated to show our Cho'gall kill, but it still won't update our Ascendant Council kill.
Pootch#2747
Sorry for posting their link without get their permission but it perfectly explains why tabs should be seperated. And thanks for doing that.
Still there s things to do.
For example removing 25man guilds 10man kills from 10man tabs
Also there s guilds which abuse ranking system with not stating their 10/25 status clearly.
Thanks for creating great site. All community used gladly till now.
But till these problems fix I refuse to use wowprogress and prefer use 'other sites' for state my guilds progress. Which update themself 10 and 25 man raiding changes.
And which ranking both 10 and 25man progress more fairly.
This is how u rank unfairly same kill:
wowprogress rank:
H: Conclave of Wind Jan 31, 2011 19:56 347 197 3
'other site' rank:
Heroic: Conclave of Wind on 10-man (world #47, realm #1).
Please stop calculating 'Oranges and Apples' together.
We have a probleme, this week we killed 7 bosses in 25 hm(omnitron,magmaw,chimaeron,atramedes,maloriak,halfus,valiona),but just one was counted(valiona 25hm).
All the others are in 10hm tag, I think that the bug comes because few persons had the achievement.
Thx