Characters are being updated now for Dragonflight Expansion!
- Item Level Character Rankings
- SimDPS
Also check:
- Guild Item Level Rankings
- Item Level Character Rankings
- SimDPS
Also check:
- Guild Item Level Rankings
Comments: 21
WoWProgress launches DPS Rankings based on SimulationCraft
11 years ago
Meet our new feature, SimDPS Rankings! It's a new way of ranking character gear and builds!
SimDPS is calculated for millions of WoWProgress characters using SimulationCraft project.
SimulationCraft is a free and open-source simulation of WoW combat mechanics: it can simulate a fight with one or many players fighting one or many targets and produce detailed informations.
How does the updating work?
Currently we update all DD specs!
All active guilds and DPS characters are updated automatically every few days.
You can also initialize updating of your guild or character with "Update Now" button.
DPS calculation might be delayed from a few seconds up to a couple of hours as it's a very CPU-intensive task.
What are the simulation conditions?
Updated: Currently it simulates Patchwerk-style boss fight, 450 seconds long. It does 1000 iterations each time to calculate DPS.
You can find these details on your character page, see the SimDPS tooltip.
We are open for proposals for better custom boss fights with adds, multiple bosses, etc.
But it doesn't match in-game DPS?
That's true, but still it's better method to rank gear and build of DD characters.
It's better than average item level and better than any gearscore system.
Want to contribute?
https://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft/
The SimulationCraft team is comprised of volunteer developers from all over the world. We are always looking for new contributors. While C++ expertise is certainly helpful, we have several key members with limited coding experience. Maintaining optimal talent, gear, and default action priority lists is a huge task and requires virtually zero C++ knowledge.
We are a very laid back group of developers. While certain project members have areas of expertise, there is little in the way of strict responsibility and ownership. Developers are expected to exercise their initiative and help out wherever needed. The Google Code site provides considerable utilities for oversight. The mantra is: Just check it in. Don't ask for permission. If the code needs to be changed for functional (or artistic!) reasons, someone (probably Nate!) will revert/modify as needed.
If you are interested in joining the team, send an email to [email protected] with your contact info.
And we have one more new thing: guild rosters now include SimDPS and sortable by any column
You can sort guild roster by any of these columns:
- Character Name
- PvE Score
- Average Item Level
- SimDPS
We would like to thank SimulationCraft team for the great tool they have developed!
Martin#21751
Great tool that really helps Theorycrafting my Character(and saves alot time)
♥
bollders#2398
Link to char: http://www.wowprogress.com/character/eu/silvermoon/Bollders
Evix#2187
Elvel
re1gn1te#1228
Shadowness
re1gn1te#1228
Dorkins#1382
Gooj
Huntingbear#2212
Huntingbear
People should learn how to use different tools, in no fucking way should you use or even try to use Simc to figure out your dps, you use Simc to figure out stat values, trinket values and shit like that. Trying to use Simc as a tool to measure your characters potential is like slicing your loaf of bread with a chainsaw.
Just don't!
Its a sim for a patchwerk style fight, for ALL players.
if you compare your 510ilvl rogue with parry gems and the 510ilvl rogue with agility gems guess who will do more dps...
re1gn1te#1228
ok. No point to argue with monkeys. Enjoy the feature.
re1gn1te#1228
re1gn1te#1228
dumdedum#21817
Dumdedum
My confusion stems from this statement, "It's better than average item level and better than any gearscore system."
This is only true if error ~0. The whole idea of ilvl was to have a rough estimate of DPS in the first place. Having a 2nd method is cool, sure. But is it worth all the chaos of people saying "oh simcraft r telling me u should be moar dips than meez noob!" With this feature, simulated dps is more transparent than ever before. 100 iterations means that this transparency may or may not be beneficial.
Again, thank you for new features. I'm just confused as to whether or not this is a QoL gain.
tl;dr: ilvl is already a "rough" dps estimate. Why add simulated uncertainties?
It's just a vanity number that shows how much gear you have.
It doesn't show:
- whether your gear's type match your class/spec
- whether your gear's primary stat matches your spec's primary stat
- whether you have legendary questline gems
- whether your gear has good set bonuses
- whether your gear enchanted/gemmed properly
DPS difference of the same ilvl characters can be really HUGE, so that ilvl cannot be considered as a dps estimate.
SimDPS doesn't have such flaws.
There can be dps error, but:
- we set simulation parameters that usually keep dps error below 2k
- your in-game dps has "dps error" too, by the same reason there is simdps error: random factors
I'm not exactly going to say you shouldn't have implemented this or you should have, however I will say you should look into fine tuning it more.
The community needs to understand this JUST got implemented, and from what I understand, the +- error is sitting at around 2-3k, that's it? Lets go back to that original statement I brought up, are you seriously telling me your in-game damage doesn't fluctuate by any means +- 3? If not 20k at times? Think again.
I like this feature, keep up the good work.
Dorkins#1382
Gooj
DeathDefier#1101
Artmaster#2152
Can we also have split 10/25 progress view?
Having said that, this feature seems pointless to me. Running Simcraft with only 100 iterations is very inaccurate to begin with. But the larger point is that ranking everyone by Simdps is a silly exercise. Their actual DPS, as influenced by encounter design, strategy and personal gameplay, is the only thing that matters.
Not true. Please look at your SimDPS tooltip on your character page. DPS Error is 722.1, it's acceptable.
> Their actual DPS, as influenced by encounter design, strategy and personal gameplay, is the only thing that matters.
Your gear potential matters alot as you can improve strategy and personal gameplay yourself, and comparing SimDPS gives you some ideas whether your gear or your skill is good enough.
You're wrong on the mere basis that you use speculation to refute a valid claim. How? Oh because the DPS error is mathematical theory. You need facts to refute a valid argument. Theories are only speculative.
10,000 iterations is the mode of most top players I've encountered, and it makes sense.
These sims are based on a 15 minute encounter where nobody has to move. That in no way properly reflects the current state of raiding in WoW. AKA not realistic.
These rankings do NOT reflect skill.
These rankings do NOT reflect real current raid scenarios.
Sims should be restrained as a personal tool for guidance. What you've done here is created a false pretense of ranking.
1. Would *you* give us (and yourself) some facts? Just run Simc 10,000 iterations on a 900 seconds fight and compare it with 1000 iterations.
2. Next step: kill some raid boss this week and the next week. Compare your DPS for these 2 kills.
> These sims are based on a 15 minute encounter where nobody has to move. That in no way properly reflects the current state of raiding in WoW.
At the end, standing and dpsing the boss is what dd do most during most of the boss fights.
My intention so far wasn't to mimic some specific boss fight, but your proposals are welcome. We can add more ratings with specific actions.
(If you don't know, with Simc we can define different fight mechanics: https://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft/wiki/RaidEvents )
> These rankings do NOT reflect skill.
> These rankings do NOT reflect real current raid scenarios.
We have PvE rankings and PvE score for that.
SimDPS is to measure character power. It's a better alternative to ilvl for dps characters.
SimDPS is to measure character power. It's a better alternative to ilvl for dps characters.
Your retort is moot. *These* sim rankings are not a "better alternative" in gauging character power. While item level doesn't reflect player skill, legendary progress, or proper gear/ stat augmentation (gems, enchants, reforging, etc.); item level serves as the single largest mercator of a character's consorted efforts towards game progress. If not, it wouldn't be the obvious first choice to use as a "first glance" to a player's potential. A simple examination of a character's profile will reveal where they stand with all the aforementioned, except the exact player *skill* or synergy w/in a raid team. Yes, Simc "has" PVE rankings and scoring along with a whole array of settings to modify any given sim ... for the sake of accuracy amongst the VARIOUS encounters. However, the Simc rankings being posted do not represent such variation.
This supports exactly what I said about the rankings not reflecting [individual] skill or current encounters. Furthermore, the exact set of conditions being used for these rankings are not elucidated. We only know that they are for a "Patchwerk" encounter at 100 iterations for 15 minutes. Nothing more.
>At the end, standing and dpsing the boss is what dd do most during most of the boss fights.
Perhaps we're not playing the same game, but that statement couldn't be anymore wrong or misleading. Assuming that most classes see optimal performance while standing still; one can see that in order for a direct damage class to fully take advantage of their abilities, they will inevitably need to stand in place to execute their utility. This patently suggests that ANY movement during a given encounter will hinder not only the execution of such abilities, but also the DD's rotation. So where as players see optimal output at stand-still, this is not a realistic expectation of what a current raid encounter will offer. To challenge players, Blizzard has trended boss encounters to require moderate to heavy movement. Stand-still fights do not exist in current tier and haven't this entire expansion. [FACT]
It is possible for *some* class roles (as individuals) to avoid or ignore mechanics that otherwise require most of the raid to move. It's also possible to ignore or "cheese" some mechanics by overcompensating with gear, or raid resource allocation being heavily dedicated to a minority number of the raid. Again, those are not realistic scenarios.
>1. Would *you* give us (and yourself) some facts? Just run Simc 10,000 iterations on a 900 seconds fight and compare it with 1000 iterations.
Woah. Talk about taking what I said out of context. I am in NO way obligated to propose any ideas to you simply because I detest these rankings. I am not ambiguously slandering them. I am logically questioning their validity and call foul where they clearly misrepresent the intention of their implementation.
You want me to run a sim at 10,000 and 1,000 iterations for a "Patchwerk" fight at a 15 minute set. Hogwash. I already know that there will be little difference between the two because of those specific parameters. Um DUH.
Once more, the very concept that players are being ranked on a "Patcherwk" fight is wrong! So is the 15 minute parameter. There are hardly any MoP boss encounters that go on for 15 minutes. Before you say it, unlike "Patchwerk" fights, there are currently exceptions where an encounter can go on for 15 minutes. None the less, those encounters account for a minority of all the MoP fights.
While we're at it, why wouldn't I run a 10k iteration against a 100 iteration ... like the ones being used for these DPS rankings? Hmmm.
>2. Next step: kill some raid boss this week and the next week. Compare your DPS for these 2 kills.
Again, I question if you and I are playing the same game. Comparing the DPS on any encounter from one week to the next, does definitely not support your argument. This actually makes me laugh. There are so many variations that go on from fight to fight, let alone week to week. Does one have any upgrades from the previous encounter? Did the DD suffer from Boss CC ... if so, how much in each encounter? If there are adds in the encounter, did those adds always spawn in range or in a location that the DD was already facing? If there were adds, were those adds in a location where both the adds and boss could be engaged simultaneously? Did the DD dye from unavoidable damage before the end of the fight? How many times in each fight did the DD have to reposition due to inevitable RNG boss mechanics?
I personally use Simulation Craft, and I adore being able to take advantage of it's utility to optimize my characters. Personally, I can attest that for at least one of the classes I play: at 10k iterations for a "light movement" fight at a 7.5 minute set, that one sim is not enough. I regularly see when I run three such sims, that 1/3 will express stat weights significantly different from the other 2/3. So much different that, I would have to augment the character entirely different from what would be suggested by the 2/3 majority.
SimC is an excellent tool. It can factor many variables allowing a player to gauge their character in several ways. However, using SimC as a blanket to rank players is confounded. You can not uniformly accredit player skill or fit w/in a raid. Furthermore, the parameters you're using are misleading and do not compliment current game design.
I suggest if you intend to keep it's implementation that, you make some changes.
1. Disclose all the parameters of the & options.
2. Make a disclaimer for actual player skill and fit.
3. Use a more realistic sim setting.
A) 1000 iterations
B) Light Movement set
C) 450 second set (7.5 minutes)
1. Disclose all the parameters of the "Globals" & "Buffs/Debuffs" options.
It was the first choice because it's available at Battle.net profiles.
DPS difference of the same ilvl characters can be huge even if we ignore player's skill.
It's just gemming, reforging matters that much.
> This patently suggests that ANY movement during a given encounter will hinder not only the execution of such abilities
I didn't tell that there is no any movement.
All the bosses require movement and some require switching to adds. Because of that players may need to change their talent builds, gems, reforge. And I put that to the notes on ervery page with simc listings.
> I am logically questioning their validity and call foul where they clearly misrepresent the intention of their implementation.
You question their validity denying validity of dps error?
I've seen several times people say "oh but 100 iterations is just not enough, top players do 10,000".
But these people don't understand what they talking about.
You writing about stat weights:
> I regularly see when I run three such sims, that 1/3 will express stat weights significantly different from the other 2/3.
DPS and stat weights are very different things. Measuring stat weights do require many iterations (10,000), but measuring DPS doesn't require it.
DPS is fine with 100 iterations of 900 sec fight.
That's why I suggested: try yourself. Run it several times and you'll see there is no so big difference.
> There are so many variations that go on from fight to fight, let alone week to week.
My intention was to make you understand that there is on "REAL TRUE DPS" value. Simc dps value has dps error, because your in-game dps has dps error too.
> 1. Disclose all the parameters of the & options.
All the parameters are default (all raid buffs, flasks, etc). Excluding the fight length, which I posted already.
> 2. Make a disclaimer for actual player skill and fit.
Do Battle.net pages with iLvL contain such disclaimer?
> 3. Use a more realistic sim setting.
> A) 1000 iterations
We may consider it. Current parameters are compromise between CPU and dps error. I'll try to improve it.
Scale Factors have their own dps_error numbers, even represented with nice bars in the chart. You should observe them as well.
But Kernel you shouldn't mix DPS sampling mean error of SimC with InGame DPS Variation. Yes the InGame DPS has variation, but the simc dps mean error approaches zero if you increase the #samples. To get the corresponding numbers, you'd need to look at the Statistics & Data Analysis in the html report to get eg. Sample Distribution Variance of DPS.
But 900 seconds is too long. Avg. time of fight is close 450 seconds.
:)
Currently, item compare is not working, items cannot be found if the player is not currently equipped with the item, and hardcore barbarians are abusing a build using very high block % to rank #1 in Heroscore and EHP in all four realms, a build that you will die if you play in inferno (not a legal, playable, viable build.)
Please consider taking 3-4 hours of time to fix these bugs. I will happily donate USD$ to your site if you put up a donation widget. I love your site! Thank you for providing it!
Galx
Senya
Can you fix the guilds that all recently took advantage of the transfer/faction/guild name change service sale? There are a few guilds holding multiple spots in top 20 US.
Thanks. :)
Treid#1352
OsOk#2268
Grozórk
I can tell you a giantstory of "dropping loot" that nobody needs, so its hard for us to get "BiS" we are not even close till end of the Content cause this randomized Loot is real bad.
There are Weapons from the Split dropping on each Boss we didnt ever Saw on of that Items in 10er.
Please do a -"normal mode" BiS Gear, Sim for all Guys to get realistic choice of there Classes! :)
>> excluding feral druids (sorry kitties, SimulationCraft people going to fix your Treants >> soon, you can also contribute to the project, see below)
and who use Force of Nature :) lol
Hakuano
Ionstorm#2545
Khaôs
What about the cats SimDPS ?
How long we have to await ?
Any info. ?
Simulationcraft working properly.
Kemii#21219
Kemii
(SimulationCraft 547-3)
Payne#2165
Ochatach#2279
Maximos#2214
Faznik
Latest release version updated on January 14th, 2015.
Download Simulationcraft 603-24 here http://www.simulationcraft.org/download.html
I like to know my real simdps and this is not correct, it was 34-35k before patch and now have 5ilvl error so 5-7k dps error i guess.
badinplaid#1734
Iraha
You always sim without Aszendenz. If you Wanna sim with the Middle 100 Talent then you have to sim with stats 50+ Mastery > Crit > Haste.....
Kody#21299
Kody
Deadsanto#1187
Allpb#2197
Vrôgros
Kody#21299
Kody
My Simdps are updatet with char update. But its 0
fix it plz
Arethusa#2286
Aewin
http://www.wowprogress.com/character/eu/magtheridon/Aewil
machita#2108
SimDPS does not seem to work properly.
Even if I try to update it, it is still stucked on the last calculation result which is the one made 9 days ago!!!!
Is there any fix available?
Best regards.
Grimshadows#1411
Aalliyah
Grimshadows#1411
Aalliyah
for reference, to compare to what you have on your site.
Chaôsblade#1643
Chaôsblade#1643
Baard#21490
My character Tigergutt on EU-Darkspear show the wrong SIMDPS. It shows 16.000 or so. It’s an error.
Is there possible to correct this?
Tigergutt
Goat#12829
Mechagøat
sce#21595
Iwasaferal
Please fix/update this as soon as possible!