Improved Scoring for Tier15


Kernel 11 years ago


We have changed our scoring system in order to better reflect the non-gated raid rankings:

- boss kills now grant constant amount of points

- guild rank is still defined by amount of score points and timestamp of your latest boss kill

- skipping bosses will reduce points of next bosses, but once you kill the missing bosses, you'll get your full points back


If you want to discuss whether we should adjust boss kill times depending on delayed content in different regions, here is a post for you:
Region based time adjustment on WoWProgress: Yes or No?
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Comments

  1. TwoThe
    Rating: +9 [-][+]
    11 years ago
    I don't get this change. Before it was easy to see for me who was first and why (reduced points = killed the boss later), now every gets the same score and for some mysterious reason some guilds are ranked above others even with the same amount of points.

    Can you please revert that?
  2. Snore1
    Rating: 0 [-][+]
    11 years ago
    This is more fair. The old system made guilds from US higher ranked than guilds from EU because they get the patches earlier. So US always kills the first bosses of instances first which makes them get a higher rank than EU even though EU was faster when they got the patch. Now Method is higher ranked than Blood Legion because they have been better than Blood Legion and catching up to the lost time.
  3. Arekk
    Arekk
    Rating: 0 [-][+]
    11 years ago
    Yea, quite good Change! But in the end it hasnt changed anything, because the endbosskill resets all previous points as usual
  4. Kernel
    11 years ago
    Yes, basically what we had for endbosses in the previous tiers, we applied that to all bosses now.
  5. Mortuque
    Rating: +1 [-][+]
    11 years ago
    This is stupid. If u want to make changes like that, announce it before the race even starts, not in the middle of progress time. Despite of this problem, previous rating system was still way better and clear to work with.
  6. Gamester
    Rating: +10 [-][+]
    11 years ago
    It makes sense to make the score system based on timestamp so the US are not ahead in score because they start the race 1 day before the EU, but making the score equal to everyone, even if the kills are days apart is just stupid. I still prefer the old system than this one. Solution: Mark the maximum score in the first kill based on the timestamp and then then the score per kill is reduced like before.
  7. Fastex
    Fromspace#1554
    Rating: +2 [-][+]
    11 years ago
    new system in not clear
  8. Stormsurfer
    Rating: +1 [-][+]
    11 years ago
    what is this shit
  9. saboya
    Rating: +8 [-][+]
    11 years ago
    I think it would be cool to have boss points decay poer week, but not decay at all doesn't look too good IMO.
  10. omnislashing
    Omnislashing#1864
    Rating: -6 [-][+]
    show comment
  11. Aquarelle
    Rating: 0 [-][+]
    11 years ago
    and how is this gonna work ? lets say i've killed boss today with a 5 pulls, and you killed it tomorrow with 3 pulls and in the end of the week you have higher place on overall ? )
  12. Keoren
    Rating: +3 [-][+]
    11 years ago
    I was fairly happy with the old system, especially the decay.

    If the US/EU difference was to be taken into account, the final boss(es) should in my opinion still be excluded because despite the time advantage the first kill is the first kill.

    While I considered the possibility of the EU decay being delayed and the decay overall still activating based on the first kill, this might cause some weird scenarios. It might be easier to just have the decay for everything other than the final boss(es) ticking from the moment the raid is released on the realms. The big problem with this would be to determine the moment of availability.
  13. Keoren
    Rating: 0 [-][+]
    11 years ago
    It is worth nothing that the time difference between the US/EU releases is not always constant and as such neither should be the suggested adjustment. A half-assed 12 hours delay for the EU might be a good estimate and close to reality but it would not be a very sophisticated solution.
  14. Kernel
    11 years ago
    There is really no need in the decay when there is no gating and the raid is linear.
    Timestamp is the substitution of point decay.
  15. Keoren
    Rating: 0 [-][+]
    11 years ago
    It (arguably) works well enough for this tier, but I would personally prefer a consistent solution that could carry over. Point decay fits this idea and differentiates the guilds a little, which I think is appropriate.
  16. Keoren
    Rating: +2 [-][+]
    11 years ago
    I'm also finding the suggestion regarding a weekly decay a nice possibility.
  17. justdeadly
    Rating: -1 [-][+]
    11 years ago
    all the top guilds where progress race matters are not skipping anything, invalid reason for change....
  18. Stommped
    Rating: +2 [-][+]
    11 years ago
    I think this new system is better, when two guilds are at equal progress whoever killed the hardest boss first should be ranked higher (you have to work with the assumption here that bosses get harder as you progress through a tier, not always the case obviously).

    The point system as it stands is kind of silly though. It would be better to have it work like it does when you kill the last boss of a tier. Every time you kill a new boss your previous point totals are erased, a new point total is calculated based on the rank of the kill which a higher scaling.
  19. Kernel
    11 years ago
    We need the point system to count amount of bosses killed and as a progress measurement for realm rankings, etc.
  20. mefi
    Méfi watch movie EARTHLINGS
    Rating: -3 [-][+]
    11 years ago
    dont wory for new system cry only guilds who skip bosses becouse its too hard for them :D
  21. Gulvan
    Rating: +1 [-][+]
    11 years ago
    Guild X kills bosses 1-4 on day 1, skips 5, kills 6-7 on day 3, kills boss 5 on day 6
    Guild Y kills bosses 1-4 on day 1, kills 5 on day 3, kills boss 6 on day 5, kills boss 7 on day 6

    Who is ranked higher?
  22. Myps
    Myps#1397
    Rating: 0 [-][+]
    11 years ago
    Well in nearly every tier, you can't actually pull the final boss without killing the other ones, so this scenario doesn't really work. If you're assuming there are actually 8+ bosses then they would be tied (though X would be behind until they killed boss 5 as they would temporarily get less points for killing boss 6 and 7).
  23. Stingray
    Stingray Angry
    Rating: 0 [-][+]
    11 years ago
    The scenario works fine as long as you don't assume that "day 1" is a Tuesday. They also wouldn't be tied (unless you just mean in points?) Whoever got their last kill sooner (last kill meaning boss 5 for guild X, boss 7 for guild Y) would be ranked higher.
  24. tresrottn
    Callie#11693
    Rating: 0 [-][+]
    11 years ago
    This isn't making any sense. Last night, BL was in 1st, because they killed more bosses first. They were awarded points based on that, the next guild lower points, and so on.
    Now, Method is first. Why is that? They now both have the same amount of points, yet one is #1 and one is #2. With zero explanation to why the new criteria was applied in the middle of the race.

    It is inherently incorrect (just WRONG) to change the ranking rules in the middle of the race.

    People are so stuck on this time being linear thing of day and night. One this race begins, both groups have 168 hours to kill a certain number of bosses withing that timeframe of 168 hours. No day, no night. No more, no less. When the US lockout begins, EU still has time (HOURS EVEN) to make progress.

    If you wanted to apply a different set of rules to the last boss, cool. But to take what were accurate results and ratings and lower the bar to getting full points is nonsense.
  25. tresrottn
    Callie#11693
    Rating: -3 [-][+]
    11 years ago
    This isn't making any sense. Last night, BL was in 1st, because they killed more bosses first. They were awarded points based on that, the next guild lower points, and so on.
    Now, Method is first. Why is that? They now both have the same amount of points, yet one is #1 and one is #2. With zero explanation to why the new criteria was applied in the middle of the race.

    It is inherently incorrect (just WRONG) to change the ranking rules in the middle of the race.

    People are so stuck on this time being linear thing of day and night. One this race begins, both groups have 168 hours to kill a certain number of bosses withing that timeframe of 168 hours. No day, no night. No more, no less. When the US lockout begins, EU still has time (HOURS EVEN) to make progress.

    If you wanted to apply a different set of rules to the last boss, cool. But to take what were accurate results and ratings and lower the bar to getting full points is nonsense.
  26. justdeadly
    Rating: -3 [-][+]
    11 years ago
    Who changes rules and shit in at the end of the first week of anything, if you didn't; like the ranks just say so. but to change the rules to give one guild first over another is plain shady work. your making this site look like a one guild fanbio site overnight.
  27. oraculum
    Rating: +2 [-][+]
    11 years ago
    Decay the points weekly instead of daily. Have the point decay for kills be based on lockout and then time.

    I.E.
    Everyone in the progression race this week gets 750 per kill. Anyone killing it next week gets a point decay (whatever is appropriate).
    To determine who's ahead, do it based on who's gotten to the latest boss the first.

    To help show this new time based method, add a column next to points as "date of most recent kill"
  28. Levante
    Rating: +2 [-][+]
    11 years ago
    I think some people are just a bit broken in the head. It's perfectly simple; The US get the patch a day earlier than EU. It's therefore unfair to say that whoever kills a boss first in real world time should get more points because the US guilds always get the advantage, which means via the old system they'd always start off with more points, which means EU guilds had to do better just to catch up.

    With this system, that advantage is still there, but a lot less noticeable because EU guilds are not being incorrectly penalised due to receiving the content a day later. If Guild X kills Dark Animus and Iron Qon on a Friday, and then Guild Y kills Dark Animus, Iron Qon and Twin Consorts on a Saturday, then Guild Y deserve to be ranked higher because they have the most kills the fastest, whereas under the old system it's possible Guild X could still be on top even if they only kill Twin Consorts on the Sunday due to the points they amassed from killing the earliest bosses whilst the content wasn't even available in the EU.

    This is a good change, please keep it :)
  29. justdeadly
    Rating: 0 [-][+]
    11 years ago
    yeah why would they be ranked higher for killing a boss first and more first......damn logic, damn you in the head lol
  30. Rocie
    Rating: -1 [-][+]
    11 years ago
    I like the new change.
  31. justdeadly
    Rating: 0 [-][+]
    11 years ago
    wait if they changed this because not gated? no raids is gated you could always skip a boss and do the next one heroic....and so on. plus top guilds where the progress ranked matter I don't think skip anything lol.
  32. Skroesec
    Strife#1977
    Straife Tyranny
    Rating: -2 [-][+]
    11 years ago
    This is a terrible change. And I'm being nice about it.

    I mean even the logic is wrong. Skipping bosses has been part of the game since well after Sunwell. Ulduar? ICC? Tier 11? Firelands? Dragon Soul? Hell... Tier 14?
    I mean who actually did Heroic Imperial Vizier before Tayak, or Garalon? There was a de-facto non-gated order in Tier 14... and decay worked fine. It didn't need this bizarre system of "giving points back".

    The history of WoWProgress is the history bizarre, inexplicable ranking changes mid-race, changes that go back ICC that were hard to justify. This is the latest.
  33. Kernel
    11 years ago
    There is nothing wrong with skipping bosses.
    If you cannot kill a boss, you skip it and move to the next one.
    If some other guild kills the boss you skipped, it means this guild is stronger than yours and gets higher rank.
  34. Skroesec
    Strife#1977
    Straife Tyranny
    Rating: +1 [-][+]
    11 years ago
    You presume however, that people don't talk to each other. Let me give you an example. Let's say we're talking ICC here. Deathwhisper was boss #2, but the 4th hardest boss in the instance. Are you suggesting that, in that instance, which had no gating for Heroic, guilds should have killed Deathwhisper before Gunship? Or even Blood Queen?

    Now you can say "if some other guild kills the boss you skipped, it means this guild is stronger than yours and gets the higher rank", and in a very naive sense, that is true.

    But in reality, people will talk to each other. They will map out de-facto progression paths, the paths of least stress and resistance, that will allow them to maximize the rate of progression within a certain time span. And they will share it and everyone will follow it.

    If a guild raids 32 days over two months, what sense is there doing the hardest boss first, when you can do the easier ones first, and spend less time on the harder ones. You will self-evidently be saving time within those 32 raid days compared to the guild that.

    My prediction is this. If you implement this, extremely few guilds will follow your linear progression path. The vast majority will say "let's skip Council (3#), do bosses 4,5,6,8 first, then come back to #3", then 7. They will do this in shorter time, and than it would take a guild do to the first three bosses. And then by the time they start on Drumuru, they have far more gear than a guild that spent weeks toiling away on Council, and thus nail Drumuru and successive bosses quicker.

    Thus your progression scheme collapses. It's the final encounter that truly matters as every raider knows... who kills that first. So people accept short-term pain for long term gain. And chances are since their peer guilds are going to follow the same progressions scheme they found in the MMO-Champion forums anyway, relatively speaking, everyone will be entirely circumventing the point of linear progression.

    Let me put it this way. When the only boss that matter at the end of a tier is the date you kill the last one, I would be out of my mind if I told my guild "let's wipe for 3 weeks on Fight W and do X,Y and Z later" When I can knock out X,Y and Z in 2 weeks and do W in 1 week. And then because we'll have extra gear from X Y and Z repeat kills (3 kills, 3 kills and 2 kills respectively), the boss after Z, lets call him "A", will die far faster than the guild that toiled for 3 weeks on W.

    Thus, your concept of "stronger guild" is completely obscured by the guild that got more gear by taking a smarter path. And especially early in a tier, like we are now, a week of gear is huge.
  35. Stingray
    Stingray Angry
    Rating: 0 [-][+]
    11 years ago
    Some valid points there. Look at all the guilds on week #1 of heroics who ground away all week on Council and never even killed it, giving up a week of gear from the later bosses that those same guilds could have presumably killed. That doesn't necessarily mean those guilds are stronger (in fact they're literally weaker now from skipping gear), but it does mean they weren't quite as smart.
  36. Kernel
    11 years ago
    You are doing false assumption that we are going to force someone to kill bosses in linear order.

    Again, there is nothing wrong with skipping bosses.

    It is okay if no one will follow the linear path. Then all guilds will get the same amount of points.

    But if a guild was strong enough to kill some bosses without skipping, they get more points.

    Guilds that didn't skip Heroic Council are stronger than ones that skipped the encounter.

    If you feel that skipping this boss was a mistake, come back next week and catch up.


    Now lets compare it with point decay system.
    Council would give much more points than Tortos and Ji-Kun.
    Skipping Council would reduce your points _forever_, and that's actually very strong pressure to not skip the bosses.

    So following your logic, the point decay system is worse than current scoring.
  37. Stejo
    Rating: 0 [-][+]
    11 years ago
    One more vote for weekly decay. Other than that the new system is better than the old one imo. Love the score reduction for skippage too.
  38. Kernel
    11 years ago
    Locking comments here, please continue the discussion in the next post.
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